SMOKING GUN!
This is one of the well to do people up here that seems to have it in for all the local businesses. Personally, I can't BELIEVE this person can be so self centered!
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POSTED BY: Musicat (Administrator)
Registered: Nov 2001Location: Door County, Wisconsin, USA
http://www.doorbell.net/mb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=208
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Originally posted by ColSamatoshi
The thing about it though, is that walmart will drop their prices to drive everyone else out, then once those other businesses have folded, will raise them again. They did it before up here.
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They did? When/who/what? Can you document this assertion? When did WalMart drive out Target? Door County Hardware? Younkers? Did KMart leave because of WalMart? Or for other economic reasons, like mismanagement? Restructuring? OK, Prange Way went, but didn't they go out of business statewide for other reasons? (Not my favorite store, so I didn't shed any tears over this one.) The claim you just made is often repeated. I'm not sure how valid it is, but even if it is, so what? Isn't that allowed? And if not, who will be the arbitrator of what price to charge and what product line to carry, if not the market? Has the Soviet Union's experiment with central planning convinced you that the marketplace cannot be trusted? The "driving the little guy out of the market, then raising prices" argument might have made sense years ago, but it has very little impact now. WalMart's biggest competitor is not Target, but the Internet. WM raises prices, I buy online at the drop of a byte. Unless you can come up with a scheme to corner the Internet, this claim is only hot air.
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Originally posted by ColSamatoshi
You also have to take into account how many jobs walmart claims will be created and at what wage(which they tend to misrepresent), vs the jobs/wages that will be lost.
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That's certainly worth a consideration. We might have to put up with the employees from MacDonald's rushing over to apply at the new WalMart store -- now that would be a tragedy. Because, according to this seemingly unfavorable site, WalMart's wages are $8.23 an hour. According to a sign I saw last week at Sturgeon Bay's largest MacDonalds, their starting pay is $6.50 to $7.00 per hour. Don't get trampled in the rush for better pay. What does the average clerk at a downtown boutique or Younkers make? I don't know; I'm really asking, but I'll bet it's not much more than these figs.
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Originally posted by ColSamatoshi
Walmart can be likened to another group, back in the 40's, who promised various things and made commitments to get what they wanted, yet always broke those promises. Walmart has promised such things as a specific number of jobs, certain hourly wage, to protect the environment around it's stores, and more. yet in each case those promises have been nothing more than lip service. They have not only proven themselves to be without honor, but not to care what happens just so long as proffits keep rolling in. And unfortunately it seems that most Americans are willing to blindly accept such broken promises again and again.
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Accusations are easily made. I have no personal proof of any of this, and it is unlikely that good proof can be made; if it could, I would expect more court cases than there already are. Anyone can cry "foul!" in a loud voice. That's not how court cases are decided and how scientific principles are discovered. I reserve the right to be skeptical about things I cannot conclusively prove to myself. And even if all these accusations are true, there are remedies that can be and should be pursued. Laws, contracts, unionizing, boycotts are some that come to mind, and I support anything legal that gets promises to be kept. If you feel that the conduct of a merchant is the most important thing to you, as opposed to prices, location, selection, hours, etc., then please don't shop or apply for employment there. For others don't share your values or priorities and do not wish to be told how to live their lives by someone who claims to be holier-than-thou. But if you are using these unsupported accusations as an excuse to prohibit a merchant from building in this town, you have stepped over the line. Your rights end where mine begin, Sir. I have no right to tell you where to shop and you have no right to tell me. I say, build the store and find out what people think with their wallets.
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Now, that's fairly straightforward, right? WELL, I offered this person a CD of information to back up what I was claiming about walmart. Below is their response:
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ColSamatoshi,
thank you for your kind offer of a CD, even with contents not specified. However, I will not be picking it up. I have been a student of economics for at least 50 years; I have probably heard more arguments that you could ever invent on both sides of the question, but nothing can convince me that you have the right to tell me where to shop or where to be employed. You have every right to try to convince those who will listen; you have every right to shop where you wish, but you do not have the right to prevent me from entering into a voluntary contract as an informed buyer with a willing and informed seller or vice-versa.
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Does that or does that not sound like they are involved in the deal??? I am SOOOOOO tempted to post who this person is (and yes, I know who it is), but to be honest I will give him a little more time to open his mind. Say, 24 hours. (Hey, when it comes to upper class threatening the well being of working stiffs, my patience tends to be short!)
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POSTED BY: Musicat (Administrator)
Registered: Nov 2001Location: Door County, Wisconsin, USA
http://www.doorbell.net/mb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=208
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Originally posted by ColSamatoshi
The thing about it though, is that walmart will drop their prices to drive everyone else out, then once those other businesses have folded, will raise them again. They did it before up here.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They did? When/who/what? Can you document this assertion? When did WalMart drive out Target? Door County Hardware? Younkers? Did KMart leave because of WalMart? Or for other economic reasons, like mismanagement? Restructuring? OK, Prange Way went, but didn't they go out of business statewide for other reasons? (Not my favorite store, so I didn't shed any tears over this one.) The claim you just made is often repeated. I'm not sure how valid it is, but even if it is, so what? Isn't that allowed? And if not, who will be the arbitrator of what price to charge and what product line to carry, if not the market? Has the Soviet Union's experiment with central planning convinced you that the marketplace cannot be trusted? The "driving the little guy out of the market, then raising prices" argument might have made sense years ago, but it has very little impact now. WalMart's biggest competitor is not Target, but the Internet. WM raises prices, I buy online at the drop of a byte. Unless you can come up with a scheme to corner the Internet, this claim is only hot air.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Originally posted by ColSamatoshi
You also have to take into account how many jobs walmart claims will be created and at what wage(which they tend to misrepresent), vs the jobs/wages that will be lost.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's certainly worth a consideration. We might have to put up with the employees from MacDonald's rushing over to apply at the new WalMart store -- now that would be a tragedy. Because, according to this seemingly unfavorable site, WalMart's wages are $8.23 an hour. According to a sign I saw last week at Sturgeon Bay's largest MacDonalds, their starting pay is $6.50 to $7.00 per hour. Don't get trampled in the rush for better pay. What does the average clerk at a downtown boutique or Younkers make? I don't know; I'm really asking, but I'll bet it's not much more than these figs.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Originally posted by ColSamatoshi
Walmart can be likened to another group, back in the 40's, who promised various things and made commitments to get what they wanted, yet always broke those promises. Walmart has promised such things as a specific number of jobs, certain hourly wage, to protect the environment around it's stores, and more. yet in each case those promises have been nothing more than lip service. They have not only proven themselves to be without honor, but not to care what happens just so long as proffits keep rolling in. And unfortunately it seems that most Americans are willing to blindly accept such broken promises again and again.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Accusations are easily made. I have no personal proof of any of this, and it is unlikely that good proof can be made; if it could, I would expect more court cases than there already are. Anyone can cry "foul!" in a loud voice. That's not how court cases are decided and how scientific principles are discovered. I reserve the right to be skeptical about things I cannot conclusively prove to myself. And even if all these accusations are true, there are remedies that can be and should be pursued. Laws, contracts, unionizing, boycotts are some that come to mind, and I support anything legal that gets promises to be kept. If you feel that the conduct of a merchant is the most important thing to you, as opposed to prices, location, selection, hours, etc., then please don't shop or apply for employment there. For others don't share your values or priorities and do not wish to be told how to live their lives by someone who claims to be holier-than-thou. But if you are using these unsupported accusations as an excuse to prohibit a merchant from building in this town, you have stepped over the line. Your rights end where mine begin, Sir. I have no right to tell you where to shop and you have no right to tell me. I say, build the store and find out what people think with their wallets.
**********************************************************************************
Now, that's fairly straightforward, right? WELL, I offered this person a CD of information to back up what I was claiming about walmart. Below is their response:
*********************************************************************************
ColSamatoshi,
thank you for your kind offer of a CD, even with contents not specified. However, I will not be picking it up. I have been a student of economics for at least 50 years; I have probably heard more arguments that you could ever invent on both sides of the question, but nothing can convince me that you have the right to tell me where to shop or where to be employed. You have every right to try to convince those who will listen; you have every right to shop where you wish, but you do not have the right to prevent me from entering into a voluntary contract as an informed buyer with a willing and informed seller or vice-versa.
********************************************************************************
Does that or does that not sound like they are involved in the deal??? I am SOOOOOO tempted to post who this person is (and yes, I know who it is), but to be honest I will give him a little more time to open his mind. Say, 24 hours. (Hey, when it comes to upper class threatening the well being of working stiffs, my patience tends to be short!)
posted by GTS at 10:34 PM
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